Episode 112 Dan White on RoboCo and GBL at Filament Games
Dan White on RoboCo and GBL at Filament Games
Episode Summary:
In this podcast episode, host Dave Eng interviews Dan White, founder of Filament Games, discussing the intersection of education and gaming. Dan's journey from teaching to game development is explored, emphasizing the challenges of creating engaging learning experiences. The concept of "pleasing frustration" is covered, where games strike a balance between challenge and support to maintain learner engagement. The conversation delves into game mechanics and their role in learning, citing examples like the game "RoboCo." The alignment of games with educational standards and the promotion of problem-solving skills are also discussed. The episode concludes with insights into Filament Games' philosophy on innovation and continuous improvement.
Dan White
he/him/his
Chief Executive Officer
Filament Games
Dan White believes that good gameplay and good learning are complementary rather than oppositional forces. An alumnus of Cornell University and the University of Wisconsin - Madison, Dan earned an M.S. in Education Technology under seminal learning game scholars Drs. Kurt Squire and James Paul Gee. Prior to founding Filament Games, Dan worked as a teacher, an instructional designer, and a game developer. Dan's passions include learning games, sustainability, mindfulness, and modernizing institutional education.
(Twitter): https://twitter.com/FilamentGames
(LinkedIn): https://www.linkedin.com/in/danwhite3/
(Facebook): https://www.facebook.com/FilamentGames
(Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/filamentgames/
(YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/@FilamentGames
(Reddit): https://www.reddit.com/r/roboco/
(Twitch): https://www.twitch.tv/robocogame
(TikTok): https://www.tiktok.com/@robocogame
(Website): https://www.filamentgames.com/
(Other): https://roboco.co/
(Other): https://twitter.com/RoboCoGame
(Other): https://www.instagram.com/robocogame/
(Other): https://www.youtube.com/@RoboCoGame
Dave Eng:
Hi, and welcome to Experience Points by University XP. On Experience Points, we explore different ways we can learn from games. I'm your host, Dave Eng, from games-based learning by University XP. Find out more at www.universityxp.com. On today's episode, we'll learn from Dan White. Dan White serves as the CEO of Filament Games. He's an advocate for integrating gameplay and learning and holds a master’s in education technology. He founded Filament Games with expertise in teaching instructional design and game development. He's incredibly passionate about learning games, sustainability, mindfulness, and transforming institutional education. Dan, welcome to the show.
Dan White:
Thank you. It's great to be here.
Dave Eng:
Many people may not know you. I definitely know you because I have visited Filament Games before. I don't think we met one-on-one, but I wanted to spend some time talking about the origin, your origin story, and Filament Games overall. So can you tell us about your journey from being a teacher and game developer to founding Filament Games? How did your experiences in education and gaming come together to shape your overall vision for the company?
Dan White:
Yeah, absolutely. So going back to the dawn of time, I was working at a supercomputing facility that had a National Science Foundation grant to investigate what it would look like to make a digital museum. And so we tried to engineer as many playful experiences into those digital spaces, but the technology was pretty crude. We were working in an engine called Active Worlds at the time, and so a lot of our time and energy just went into making basic things work. And yet, despite that, we were using these spaces to teach concepts about genetics to middle school students. And, I think it surprised everybody how, not only how effective it was, but also how engaged the students were. And so that was an initial light bulb moment for me. I was thinking, well, this is not very good, but it is. Then imagine who it was actually good, how powerful this technology, how compelling this technology could be in the service of learning sciences.
So I went on to pursue a master's degree at University of Wisconsin-Madison, where I had the pleasure to work under some of the seminal authors in the games and learning space, James, Paul Gee, Kurt Squire, Constance Steinkuehler, Rich Halverson, Erica Halverson, and just sort of steep in, marinate in a lot of the rhetoric being produced by some of the best and brightest minds in game-based learning at the time and still to this day. And while I was doing that to make ends meet, I was also working as a teacher, not as a traditional classroom teacher, but as a technology teacher.
So I did have a classroom, but I wasn't teaching core subject areas. This was during summer school, and I was teaching things like Adobe Flash and Macromedia tools, web design, video editing, AV, stuff like that. And I think the reason that that teaching experience was so formative, even though it wasn't a formal K-12 classroom, is that it gave me a real appreciation for how challenging leading a class is, I think of a classroom full of students of any age, but particularly at the middle school level, which is a level that we have developed a lot of games for over the last 18 years.
Basic classroom management, just keeping students engaged, keeping things relevant, addressing the fact that every single student that walks into your classroom that day has a different life experience behind them and had a different morning before they walked through your classroom. And there's just so many different things for an educator to be thinking about other than education itself. And that I think, if anything, reified this idea in my head that there was a place for learning games in the classroom and outside of the classroom because it's so important that we give educators tools to do what they do best, which is know their students and know what each individual student needs and have the bandwidth to be able to give those students what they need as opposed to trying to do a one size fits all curriculum.
Dave Eng:
Right. Wow. Thanks, Dan. I did not know that about your background. I knew reading your bio about your study and your work at University of Wisconsin-Madison, I think I originally came to know about Filament games through the GLS conference that was originally held at University of Wisconsin-Madison by Kurt Squire and Constance Steinkuehler. A couple of things that stood out to me. I wanted to talk about, one, trying to explain to middle schoolers what DNA is originally brought me all the way back to, do you remember the Mr. DNA character from Jurassic Park in 1993? I might be dating myself by bringing up this reference.
Dan White:
Absolutely, yeah.
Dave Eng:
Immediately what I thought about that and the fact that it is a complicated subject. I don't fully understand it as an adult, but I'm also not a geneticist. I can't imagine the process that you go through in having to explain a concept like that to middle schoolers. And I think that your background overall as an educator and someone that recognizes that what Filament Games does and games and games-based learning overall are tools. They're not a replacement for education. They're not a replacement for teaching. They're not a replacement for instruction, but they're a tool that other educators and instructors use. So thank you for providing that. And my follow-up question was, was the Mr. DNA icon from Jurassic Park, was that influential in how you design that system explaining genetics?
Dan White:
No, actually, this was before that even happened. I think now I'm actually wondering if I'm getting my dates wrong. So Jurassic Park goes, the first one was mid nineties, I want to say.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, '93.
Dan White:
'93. Okay, so I'm wrong. This would've been shortly after that.
Dave Eng:
Okay.
Dan White:
So it should have, because it should have been fresh on my mind, but no, you're 100% right. These are all tools that should be in the educator's tool belt not to replace any other tools in their belt. And certainly not to replace the educator themselves, but rather a tool with very unique affordances that other sorts of media, especially passive consumption oriented media like books and movies and audio, just don't have. Games by their very nature are interactive, they're essentially experience engines. And by virtue of that, they can deliver a type of conceptual and a depth of conceptual understanding that is very difficult for students to get from those other mediums. But when we were tackling the subject of genetics at the time, a lot of our methodology or pedagogy, if you will, was a little bit more traditional because it was based off of that museum model. Whereas now even you'll see museums trying to get more and more interactive based on this idea that some of the best learning is really hands-on where the learner has the opportunity to dive in and manipulate systems and experiment and see what happens.
So more so inspired by the museum structure than by the clippy version of the DNA avatar from Jurassic Park. But I think that maybe one thing that's relevant is that Jurassic Park and Michael Crichton as an author in general, did a really terrific job of taking science concepts and science subjects that were otherwise mainly the purview of scientists and figuring out how to make them interesting to the general public, to a gen-ed audience. That's also, I think, a big part of what games can do. Although in his case, he's doing it for purely entertainment purposes, whereas a lot of the games that we develop are intended to entertain, but they're intended to entertain by virtue of the player mastering the things that we want them to learn.
Dave Eng:
Right. Thank you, Dan. I appreciate it. I think as a good segue here, I know that referencing the movie Jurassic Park, Hammond, one of the original characters, talks about how paleontologists will basically become extinct because why go to a museum and see the bones of a dinosaur where you can actually experience a live dinosaur in real life? And that brings me to the second question. When you talked about games as experience engines, when I was studying your biography and your background leading up to this interview, one of the phrases that really stood out to me was the phrase "pleasing frustration." So I know you've talked about this phrase specifically in scaffolding in learning games, which sounds very intriguing, and I've never actually used this phrase before. So can you discuss what you mean by the term “pleasing frustration,” and how does your team strike the right balance between challenge and support to keep learners engaged and motivated throughout the games that you've produced?
Dan White:
Yeah, absolutely. And this is not at all unique to Filament, but I think a tool that game designers across the game development space use on a regular basis. Because the thing is, if a game is too easy, the players tend to get bored. So a lot of players when they play video games are looking for a challenge, but it has to be the right amount of challenge. It can't be too hard, it can't be too easy. You're trying to walk that fine line. And so I think the same is true for educational video games. A game that we've been working on for some number of years called RoboCo, which is a digital robotics game, is actually quite challenging. We ask the player to build robots to solve problems, and we try to make it start out as easy as possible and then ramp up at a pace that feels motivating.
But part of making it feel motivating is making it feel a little bit frustrating so that you want to win, you want to feel like a sense of victory if you succeed. And in fact, the best moments in that game are the moments where you've tried a couple iterations of designs for your robot and you get one that solves the problem really elegantly, and you kind of feel like a genius in that moment where your robot completes the task at hand in a really intelligent way, in a really elegant way. In that moment, the player's brain is releasing a lot of dopamine and it's well-earned dopamine, right? It's not gamification based dopamine where there was something superficial that happened like a reward, like a star. It's an earned reward. And I think the literature suggests that that is the type of positive feedback loop that actually leads to sustainable interest in learning outcomes and pursuing self-betterment, right? It's when you tackle something that is hard, but fair and doable and get that dopamine rush because you've actually accomplished something meaningful that really keeps you engaged long-term with something.
Dave Eng:
Thanks, Dan. Some phrases that came to mind immediately when you're talking about this level of appropriate challenge is the zone proximal development and getting players to engage in that flow state where they're at just the right level of challenge. Again, nothing too easy, nothing too hard, but at a point where they are sufficiently challenged to continue playing and engaging with the game. Again, I guess another pop culture reference, I guess I'll date myself again, is do you ever play the PC game, The Incredible Machine? Do you remember that game?
Dan White:
Ooh, The Incredible Machine? Yeah, I have played that game. I haven't logged a lot of time with it, but I'm familiar with it.
Dave Eng:
So for those listeners who haven't played it before The Incredible Machine, we'll spend some time talking about RoboCo in the next question, but it is basically creating a machine, but it's a Rube Goldberg machine. So the objective for each level might be to get this apple from one side of the screen to a basket on the other side of the screen, but you're challenged to do so using only the elements that the "game" provides you like a piece of string or a scissors or like a candle or anything else. And basically you need to figure out how to get that apple from one point to the other. But in the open sandbox version of the game, you can turn it into a Rube Goldberg machine, which is how many steps can I throw in the process of getting this apple from one side to the other?
And it's kind of like, I suppose it's the opposite of RoboCo where you're just not trying to find an efficient solution. You're just trying to find the longest, craziest solution to do so. But I think it still speaks to that same flow state and zone of proximal development where you have this clear positive reinforcement of being able to achieve this challenge of either making something super simplistic or making something super long or overly complex that I think is interesting. And I think that so long as the game achieves the specific learning outcome that you're trying to focus on, particularly for RoboCo, which we'll talk about next, I think that's a positive experience, first of all. And that's a really positive game full and games-based learning experience.
Dan White:
And I think what makes it so compelling to a lot of players is that creative agency, and this is something that games, good games are particularly good at, and I dare say in direct contrast to a lot of formal learning experiences where you're asked to draw between the lines as it were. Whereas good games, I think in many cases, give you a lot of agency to solve the problem in a way that feels personal and meaningful and feels relevant to your own interests and experience and ideas. So The Incredible Machine is a terrific example. In some ways it's a canvas, and the pencil or the paintbrush in this case is all of the different machine parts that you have in order to move the ball from point A to point B. And that feels really good to have, have the agency as a player to come up with a design that feels very personal, and it feels like something that you can have a high degree of ownership over.
Across the last 18 years, we've definitely made games where the player has varying levels of agency all along the spectrum. We try to develop toward the high agency end of the spectrum because we feel like that's kind of the sweet spot from a learning experience perspective and also just what makes for the best gameplay. As I think back across my gaming careers, the best experiences that I had were games where I felt a high degree of ownership over the choices that I made and then the outcomes of those choices. Now, at the end of the day, all video games are constrained spaces, right? It's not the real world. You can't literally do anything that you want. And so you are to a certain extent, always operating within certain parameters or certain constraints, but that's also important from a learning perspective as well, because if you completely open the floodgates, then the learner doesn't necessarily have the experience that you intend for them to have.
So I think when we're designing good learning games, it's always about striking that balance between completely open-ended sandbox where no two learners have the same experience and hyper restricted experience where we can guarantee what they'll learn, but they don't feel any sense of ownership and therefore have lower levels of engagement.
Dave Eng:
Thanks, Dan. I know that agency is a particularly critical and important part for games-based learning, and you said the magic word, which is sandbox, which leads me into my third and next question, which is RoboCo, I believe, the latest game that Filament Games has produced, which is a sandbox game that encourages players to design and build robots for real world scenarios. So can you tell us a little bit more about how the game aligns with educational standards like Next Generation Science standards and Common Core, and then specifically how does it promote problem solving and critical thinking skills?
Dan White:
Yeah, absolutely. So the game is basically, you can think of it like a robotics toolkit, but digital, so unlike with a physical kit, A, it's a lot more affordable, those are very expensive. B, you have unlimited parts, C, you have parts that wouldn't be practical in the real world either because they're too expensive or too dangerous, and D, you can prototype your creations really quickly. So when you're working with robots hands-on, the span of time between your idea and being able to test that idea and see it in action and see how it works can be days in some cases, weeks or more. And that's fine for a really motivated, more experienced roboticist, but for somebody who's just learning, it's very difficult to keep somebody engaged for that period of time before they get their first kind of win or sense of hitting that positive feedback loop.
So that's a big part of what we're trying to do with the digital space, is decrease the cost and then increase or decrease the amount of time from the point where a beginner roboticist starts their journey and has no idea what robotics is all about, why they should care, and the point where they've built something that has solved a problem that you could see a robot solving in the real world and feeling really good about their design solution. So RoboCo really focuses in pretty hard on the mechanical engineering aspect of robotics, although you can entirely program and automate your robots through sensors and Python. But the game I think is unique in that there are a number of other experiences that allow you to program and automate your robots, but there are not many other experiences that allow you to design and build the exact robot that you want.
And the cool thing about that mechanical engineering aspect is that we hit a lot of the engineering design process standards really well, and the reason that these standards are so important is that most novice engineers or roboticists take a spaghetti at the wall approach. They don't have much of a methodology in the same way that somebody who's maybe asking a scientific question but is not versed or literate in the language of the scientific method, might take an unscientific approach to answering a question about the world. So the reason that that rapid prototyping in digital space is so important is because we can scaffold the player from that spaghetti at the wall approach to engineering design, to a much more thoughtful and planned out approach where they're making very intentional edits each time they iterate on their design.
Dave Eng:
All right, thanks Dan. I appreciate that. I think that that iterative process of designing and engineering is incredibly important. Full disclosure, I haven't had the opportunity to play RoboCo yet. I have it on my Steam wishlist, so hopefully I'll get to do that in the near future. But everything that you've discussed about it so far sounds very similar to what Lego does with its Serious Play. And I originally started down a road of using Legos all the way back in high school for developing and surmounting some sort of engineering challenge. So can you talk about what would be the differences of an educator's looking at using RoboCo as an educational tool and possibly using Lego Play as an educational tool? What would you say are the main differentiating factors between RoboCo and what an educator would use with Legos?
Dan White:
Yeah. No, they're definitely similar in that they're open agency play spaces, they're sandbox spaces where the player is bringing a lot of their creativity and problem solving and design thinking into the space in order to come up with solutions that are entirely their own. I mean, one big difference is that we do provide, by virtue of it being a digital space, we provide challenges for the player to build toward or solve. So Lego is a true sandbox in that you can build whatever you want, but you don't necessarily have a particular reason to build a thing. You sort of have to invent that reason as well, unless you're participating in, say, for example, like a robotics competition and using a Lego EV spike prime kit or something like that, RoboCo by contrast, every player who plays RoboCo is given a campaign of compelling reasons to build different types of robots that have different types of functions.
So, one campaign level challenges you to build a robot that can deliver a sandwich to a customer at a table and a bistro. Another one challenges you to cross a gap and turn a valve to stop a goo leak. Another one challenges you to build a robot that can perform a particular set of dance moves or to harvest lumber and place it in a truck, or to transport a box from a high shelf to another high shelf. So really, or to catapult something from point A to point B. So really different types of engineering tasks that get the player thinking about different types of designs. We don't ever want the player to be able to recycle a design from a previous point in the campaign because we want each one to be a very differently shaped mechanical engineering challenge.
Dave Eng:
Right. Thanks, Dan. It sounds like you've really thought a lot about this process and are constantly innovating over there at Filament Games on how to create the best games-based learning serious games and apply games for teaching and learning. Which brings me into my last question, which is about just overall your philosophy on innovation at Filament Games. So from you as a leader in the educational game development industry, how do you keep your team and projects at the forefront of innovation? And specifically, how do you ensure continuous improvement in your game designs and methodologies?
Dan White:
Yeah, that's a great question. I think so much of it is about pushing new platforms and new subject areas and new game mechanics. So I'll start with platforms. So when VR became a viable platform, we started exploring what the unique affordances of that platform were and how we could leverage them in the service of learning through interactive play. And of course, it turns out that VR is great for teaching embodied concepts and subject areas, mechanics. We're constantly thinking about what types of gameplay, mechanics or interactions or verbs would allow us to impart an experience to the player that they maybe can't have practically in any other way in or out of the classroom. In terms of the subject areas, this is our first time making a game about robotics. And so we have to ask ourselves, well, what do physical robotics kits do really well?
And then what can we do in the digital space that you can't do with a physical robotics kit? We're also thinking about what does it look like to add AI to RoboCo, and what could you do in RoboCo that wouldn't be practical in the real world? Well, we could do swarm AI, right? So like AI where a bunch of different robot agents are communicating with one another in order to do something in coordination. It's very difficult or impossible to do in the real world, just based on the practical limitations of how much each of those robots would cost and how much space you have and all that kind of stuff. So I think, yeah, it's basically the platforms, the mechanics, and the subject areas. And then in terms of our methodology, each project is a unique combination of a subject matter expert, a designer, and then a development team.
And because different designers have different methodologies and approaches to designing games, different subjects or content areas sort of lend themselves to different types of mechanics. Like a game about accounting is a very different play space than a game about being a nurse, for example. In the latter case, you have a lot of physically embodied learning objectives, and in the case of the former, you're thinking about financial systems and how numbers interact with each other, and of course, it's very process based as well. So yeah, I think just by virtue of working on a very eclectic mix of different projects with different team members, we're constantly inventing and reinventing. It's pretty rare that we lean heavily on game mechanics or tropes from entertainment-based game genres, and I know that is one of the challenges of designing educational games, but it's also one of the really enjoyable and satisfying things about it.
Dave Eng:
Great. Thanks, Dan. I really appreciate you disclosing the relationship that your designers and your development team shares with your subject matter experts. Just as a quick aside, how do you go about sourcing your subject matter experts? Do you find them? Do they volunteer? What's that process like?
Dan White:
Yeah, so for internal projects like RoboCo where we are designing the IP from scratch, then yeah, we work with external subject matter experts. And then for a lot of our client work where we're hired to develop a game on contract that's custom for a particular client, oftentimes the client will bring a subject matter expert to the table who either works for them or they've sourced as a third party, or if that's not the case, then we will also work with them to source somebody.
So yeah, we always like to... And then of course, the designer themselves I think becomes through the process of researching and preparing for the game design will become something of a subject matter in and of themselves as well, and a different type of subject matter than somebody who has spent a career thinking about a particular subject because the designer is thinking about it in the same way that a novice learner would think about it, which actually puts them in a really good position to dialogue with somebody who knows the subject area in and out based on life experience, because those people sometimes struggle to see how to frame something in a way that would make sense to somebody who is not an expert.
Dave Eng:
Great. Thank you, Dan. Appreciate that. So thanks for joining us today. Where can people go to find out more about you?
Dan White:
So they can go to filamentgames.com. They can find out about RoboCo at roboco.co. That's R-O-B-O-C-0.co. I said com, but I meant co. Roboco.co, filamentgames.com.
Dave Eng:
Great. Thanks, Dan. I'll also put all those links in the show description and show notes. So Dan, thanks again for joining us. Appreciate it.
Dan White:
My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Dave.
Dave Eng:
I hope you found this episode useful. If you'd like to learn more than a great place to start, it's my free course on gamification. You can sign up for it at www.universityxp.com/gamification. You can also get a full transcript of this episode, including links to references in the description or show notes. Thanks for joining us. Again, I'm your host, Dave Eng, from Games-Based Learning by University XP. On Experience Points, we explore different ways we can learn from games. If you like this episode, please consider commenting, sharing and subscribing. Subscribing is absolutely free and ensures that you'll get the next episode of Experience Points delivered directly to you. I'd also love it if you took some time to rate the show. I live to lift others with learning. So if you found this episode useful, consider sharing it with someone who could also benefit. Also, make sure to visit University XP online at www.universityxp.com. University XP is also on Twitter @University_XP, and on Facebook and LinkedIn as University XP. Also, feel free to email me anytime. My email address is dave@universityxp.com. Game on!
Cite this Episode
Eng, D. (Host). (2024, May 26). Dan White on RoboCo and GBL at Filament Games. (No. 112) Video]. Experience Points. University XP. https://www.universityxp.com/video/112
Internal Ref: UXP7P1ITL2SM
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